Tuesday, October 06, 2009

It's hard to miss

I hear tell that 19th-century German Jews had a saying: "Be a Jew at home and a German on the street." Well, le' me tell ya, it's pretty hard being a Jew at home and an American on the street while riding a bus and/or subway with a lulav. Good luck trying to carry a three-foot-long object discretely.

It gets better: Since many Orthodox women do not attend morning minyan in synagogue, praying by themselves in the morning and/or at other times of the day, and since many in the Orthodox community are of the opinion that a woman is not obligated to use a lulav and etrog, bonus points for being a walking bull's-eye within the Jewish community go to any female seen in public at 6:30 AM, unaccompanied by a father, brother, husband and/or son,with a lulav and etrog in her hands.

12 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Did that this AM (but at about 7am not 6:30 and in Monsey)

Tue Oct 06, 10:12:00 AM 2009  
Blogger Shira Salamone said...

Wow, you must have nerves of steel, to make yourself a bull's-eye in a right-wing Orthodox town like Monsey.

Tue Oct 06, 11:15:00 AM 2009  
Anonymous jdub said...

Shira:

Again, pls leave off the stereotypes. What do you think would happen, a woman would be attacked for carrying a lulav? Ashkenazi Jews hold that not only may a woman take arba minim, but can also make a brakha on it (Sephardi Jewish women do not make brakhot on time bound mitzvot generally, although there is some variation).

Also, Monsey has a variety of Jews ranging from Chassidish and Yeshivish to Orthodox professionals.

Tue Oct 06, 12:35:00 PM 2009  
Blogger Shira Salamone said...

Sorry, JDub, maybe my word choice wasn't the best--I just meant that it's sufficiently unusual for a woman to be seen carrying a lulav early in the morning that she'd be rather conspicuous. I was actually trying to have some fun with that sort of situation, but I guess I didn't do too well in the humor department. No, I certainly don't think a woman would be attacked for carrying a lulav. I apologize for perpetuating a stereotype. I guess my knowledge of the demographics of Monsey is too limited.

I'm aware of the Ashkenazi/Sefardi divide on women making b'rachot over time-bound mitzvot. I understand the logic, but I'll admit that this is one point of halachah/Jewish religious law on which I'm glad to be Ashkenazi: When I accept the obligation to perform a time-bound mitzvah, I always make the relevant b'rachah, and would really feel that something were missing if my community did not allow me to do so.

Tue Oct 06, 12:48:00 PM 2009  
Blogger Larry Lennhoff said...

It is an interesting exercise to note which optional mitzvot Orthodox women are encouraged to perform, which are neutral, and which are discouraged.

I"ll start:
Encouraged: Hearing shofar on RH, benching with lulav (at home using the husband/sons), davening with a minyan(*), hearing kriat hatorah

Neutral: eating in the sukkah

Discouraged: wearing tallit katan, tallit, tefillin. In some communities, davening maariv, especially b'tzibbur.

Any others? Any variant opinions about the list?

(*) One can argue about whether davening b'tzibbur is an actual mitzvah, or whether there is a communal mitzvah to have a tzibbur. Go ahead and argue, I'll wait. :>)

Wed Oct 07, 01:49:00 PM 2009  
Blogger Shira Salamone said...

"Discouraged: wearing tallit katan, tallit, tefillin. In some communities, davening maariv, especially b'tzibbur."

I'm certainly acquainted with most of these "discouragements," having seen women wearing tallitot in only one Orthodox synagogue in all the years that I lived in Manhattan and "shul-hopped" on 2nd & "last" days of Shalosh R'galim/Pilgrimage Festivals.

But the maariv "discouragement" is new to me. Though I have heard that many Orthodox women don't pray Maariv at all, I didn't know that praying Maariv was unofficially discouraged for women. As for the b'tzibur (in a community, that is, with a minyan) part, I suppose that the quickest way to determine whether an Orthodox synagogue encourages women to pray b'tzibur is to see whether their "daily chapel"/bet midrash/minyan room/"little synagogue"/whatever has a mechitzah. The lack of a barrier separating men and women during prayer (required in an Orthodox synagogue) is a sure sign that women are neither expected nor welcome to pray with a minyan.

Some bloggers have complained previously that those who oppose Women's Tefillah (Prayer) Groups (wherein women lead one another in prayer, but skip any prayers that required a minyan) but also don't insist that a daily-minyan room must have a mechitzah are contradicting their own principles: If they really believe that it's less important for women to have an opportunity to lead others in prayer that it is for women to pray with an minyan, they should certainly make it possible for women to pray with a minyan.

Wed Oct 07, 02:32:00 PM 2009  
Blogger Larry Lennhoff said...

Discouraging davening maariv b'tzibbur was metioned to me by a Bobover acquaintence. I'm sure it is discouraged in Bnai Brak as well - I've heard accounts of the women's section being locked on a Friday night, kal v'chomer on a weeknight.

On the other hand my local MO shul has women attending maariv more often than not. My belief is that at any shul in town if a woman showed up for maariv, even the ones without a mechitza in their daily davening area would at least hastily improvise a mechitza or move to the main sanctuary, as appropriate.

Wed Oct 07, 03:25:00 PM 2009  
Blogger Shira Salamone said...

Well, Larry, at least *some* of what you're reporting is good news.

Wed Oct 07, 04:27:00 PM 2009  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I am Orthodox and I have never heard of women being discouraged from davening maariv. However, most or at least many Orthdox sources hold that women are only obligated to daven shemona esrai once a day, and that that obligation can only be discharged by davening shacharit or mincha. Keep in mind that originally maariv was optional even for men.
So women CAN daven maariv, but do fulfill the obligation of tefila, they must daven either shacharit or mincha.
Many Orthodox women daven maariv Friday night, either at home or at shul. Some (usually younger single women also daven maariv motzai Shabbos as a way to end Shabbos.

Wed Oct 07, 04:41:00 PM 2009  
Anonymous jdub said...

That's the first time in the 20 years or so that I"ve been orthodox that I've heard of women being discouraged to daven ma'ariv. our shul always has a handful of women and teenaged girls at ma'ariv, and all tefillot are in a space with a mechitzah so women can come.

also, many women have their own lulav and etrog. We buy two sets, one for the men's side, one for the women's. When my daughter becomes a bat mitzvah she may or may not get a set too. we'll see. But I couldn't see buying my son one and not my daughters.

re: Sukkah: I don't agree that it's neutral. I think women tend to use the "i'm not chayav" reason to avoid it, particularly if it's cold. my family eats in the sukkah unless it's not safe or it's raining (wind today knocked down the schach and part of the wood).

Wed Oct 07, 04:51:00 PM 2009  
Blogger Larry Lennhoff said...

Sorry I need to clarify. Due to my wife's large pool of connections I know the customs of some pretty small and pretty extreme O communities. Instead of saying 'some O communities discourage' I should have said 'a very few O communities discourage'.

That said, regular readers of Charlie Hall will remember that his wife regularly has trouble outside her regular shul when she tries to join a minyan for mincha and even occasionally for shacharit. If the physical plant doesn't have a mechtiza built in some groups can be hostile to the notion of improvising a mechtiza, as opposed to suggesting she daven in the hallway or whatever.

Wed Oct 07, 05:05:00 PM 2009  
Blogger Shira Salamone said...

" . . . most or at least many Orthdox sources hold that women are only obligated to daven shemona esrai once a day, and that that obligation can only be discharged by davening shacharit or mincha. . . . So women CAN daven maariv, but do [to] fulfill the obligation of tefila, they must daven either shacharit or mincha."

I didn't know that. Thanks for the information, Anon.

JDub and Larry, thanks for the clarifications.

Wed Oct 07, 05:19:00 PM 2009  

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